captioning sponsored by macneil/lehrer productions >> woodruff: good evening. i'm judy woodruff. libyan rebels repelled air and ground attacks on oil installations in eastern libya by forces loyal to moammar qaddafi. >> warner: and i'm margaret warner. on the "newshour" tonight, we have the latest on the counter- offensives as qaddafi warns the international community thousands of libyans will die if america and nato enter libya. >> woodruff: plus we look at military options for the u.s. and others, including establishing a no-fly zone over the north african nation. >> warner: marcia coyle gives us the latest from the supreme court, including today's 8-1

ruling upholding the free speech rights of protesters at military funerals. >> woodruff: spencer michels reports on the controversy surrounding dozens of no fishing zones off the coast of california. >> california is establishing dozens of protected areas in the ocean, but the problem is there aren't enough game wardens to enforce the rules. >> warner: and jeffrey brown talks to libyan-born u.s. poet khaled mattawa about life in libya under qaddafi and today's uprising. >> woodruff: that's all ahead on tonight's "newshour." mar fuing r the pbs newshour has been provided by:

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and with the ongoing support of these institutions and foundations. and... this program was made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting. and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> woodruff: libyan leader moammar qaddafi struck back at his opponents today with words and warfare. just after dawn, about 200 of his loyalists attacked the eastern oil port of brega in dozens of vehicles. opposition militias drove them out, but doctors reported 10 killed and 18 wounded. we have series of reports from "independent television news" correspondents, beginning with james mates, in the town of ajdabiya. >> reporter: testing their weapons and establishing what they fear will soon become a

frontline. a few miles from the now besieged town of al-brega, the counter-attack they'd feared for more than a week seemed to have started this morning. from inside al-brega, a fighter we'd contacted spoke of appalling scene. >> this terrible situation is actually slaughter. we were there nearly 100, just 20 got back and 10 still alive, we carry them with us. >> reporter: here, they're getting ready but the reality is that they are volunteers and irregulars who may have to go up against some of qaddafi's best trained troops. from here, they are sending men and ammunition down the road toward al-bregato help out with the battle there and receiving the wounded back here. but most of all, what they want to do here is stop the contagion spreading, make this effectively a frontline against any qaddafi advance. in the main hospital at ajdabiya, seven wounded in the fighting are getting what

treatment is available. for the most part, they are gunshot and shrapnel wounds. the doctors here are being told by colleagues in al-brega of many more dead and injured who can't yet be evacuated. >> there are lots of injured there, who they cannot send there. and there are no supplies there, okay? i'm talking about supplies, i'm talking about doctors, i'm talking about medical supply in general. there are nothing there. >> reporter: nothing in al- brega. >> ( translated ): yeah, there's nothing there. it's massacre right now, okay? it's massacre. >> reporter: among the casualties a young boy, no more than six or seven years old, with a gunshot wound in his abdomen. at a nearby arms dump where the guards had joined the rebellion, they're taking ammunition and handheld weapons to get them down the road to their colleagues. but what they have in supplies they lack in expertise. >> we are taking most of the artillery and the other thing that the machine guns, it calls for and to have-- use for the planes. >> reporter: so anti-aircraft weapons. >> yes, anti-aircraft. >> reporter: do you have enough

people who know how to use them? >> actually, no. >> reporter: the latest reports from al-brega say that qaddafi's forces this evening have pulled out of the town, whether driven but none here are optimistic that they won't try again. >> warner: qaddafi also issued another verbal broadside today. he appeared in tripoli, insisting his regime will fight to the last man and woman. and he warned against any military intervention by outside powers. jonathan rugman reports from tripoli. >> reporter: he's lost his grip on eastern libya. but driving his own golf cart today often hands-free col. qaddafi seemed neither embattled nor beleaguered. the uprising against him is a fortnight old now and qaddafi is pushing back, recapturing ground "they're saying qaddafi should leave," he told us today. "but i will never leave the land of my forefathers. i have no authority anyway because the power lies with the people." sanctions he said were part of a plot to invade libya.

thousands and thousands will die if the u.s. or nato come here, he claimed. "we would die for you in battle, qaddafi" his supporters shouted, "just call us and everyone will come." he told them al-qaeda sleeper cells had sneaked into libya and that no more than 200 people had been killed in all. and he had this message for rebel-held benghazi. "if people hand over their weapons, we will educate them," he said. "they should surrender now and we will forgive." there have many assassination attempts in his 41-year rule, and this bodyguard's briefcase is believed to contain armored- plating in case of a gun attack. but the boss seemed relaxed. he called the invited foreign press mouthpieces of imperialism and his audience lapped it up. though one or two couldn't help dropping off. their brotherly leader having spoken for over two and a half hours almost non-stop.

then it was back into the world's most guarded golf cart for the short drive home. there have not been any protests he had claimed when the world finds out the truth, it will be shocked. >> woodruff: u.n. refugee officials reported today the number of people fleeing libya in recent days now tops 180,000. the great majority are thousands of foreign workers trying to get home. alex thomson has the latest on that part of the story, from tunisia. yesterday thousands of egyptians today much smaller numbers of bangladeshis. they said they'd been waiting four days and their company and government had done nothing to help.

ghanaians too, and to be black in libya right now is to be in great danger. ghana's honorary council at hand to explain. >> some people of authority in libya use black people for their revolution or counter revolution. this is our problem. >> reporter: a diplomat's description of colonel qaddafi using black africans as mercenaries. we met a mulatto here who said he'd personally seen four ghanaians who'd been shot dead. >> so if they see you are a black man, you are in big problem. people in libya are just hiding themselves, i mean black people. they are hiding themselves. some of them are in the desert, far away. some of them are in the bush, i mean they are in farms and gardens. and some of them are in their room. you cannot go outside. no food. no water. they are just sleeping. >> reporter: further into tunisia, evidence everywhere you look of the problem here. tented camps can take ten

10,000 or so, but there are quite simply far more people than there are tents. so transport is the solution, the only way out of this. mercifully, one of the biggest airports in tunisia is close to the border, near ajdabiya. three british charter jets began landing here today. france is also sending military planes too, and a ship. together, they'll bring out at least 10,000 evacuees. not far away, at the port of zarzis, things look quiet enough at first. but inside the transit shed here, many more await another route home to egypt. so, several hundred people in the transit shed behind me and the way out will be this, the egyptian auxiliary naval vessel, the haliab, they reckon they can take about 1,200 people on that. but if british officials figures are right, you'd need at least

60 ships like this to take all the egyptians home. >> warner: as european nations began rescue missions, the u.s. also moved military forces closer to libya today. two navy amphibious ships sailed through the suez canal, arriving in the mediterranean. they're capable of putting hundreds of marines ashore. meanwhile, the rebels in eastern libya called for outside air strikes against qaddafi's forces. but in washington, at a house hearing, defense secretary robert gates said setting up a no-fly zone over libya is no simple matter. >> there's a lot of frankly, loose talk about some of these military options and let's just call a spade a spade. a no-fly zone begins with an attack on libya. to destroy the air defenses. that's the way you do a no-fly zone. and then you can-- and ten you can fly planes around the country and not worry about our guys being shot down.

>> woodruff: on the senate side, the chairman of the foreign relations committee democrat john kerry said the u.s. must do what it can to aid the libyan opposition including a no-fly zone. >> the people of libya are not asking for foreign troops on the ground. they are committed to doing what is necessary. but they do need the tools to prevent the slaughter of innocents on libyan streets. and i believe that the global community cannot be on the sidelines while airplanes are allowed to bomb and strafe. >> warner: at that same hearing, secretary of state hillary clinton said all options are still alive. and, she said above all, the u.s. does not want libya to end up a failed state. >> one of our biggest concerns is libya descending into chaos and becoming a giant somalia.

it's-- right now not something that we see in the offing but, many of the al qaeda activists in afghanistan and later in iraq came from libya and came from eastern libya, which is now the so-called free area of libya. >> woodruff: arab league foreign ministers said today they would consider imposing their own no- fly zone over libya. they met in cairo and agreed to consult with the african union on which steps to take. >> warner: for more on how the discussion over a no fly zone is evolving inside the administration and the military, we go to mark thompson, the military affairs correspondent and deputy washington bureau chief for "time" magazine. mark, welcome back. so we saw the outlines of a bate right there on the hill today. secretary clinton said the no-fly zone is under "active consideration" and then you saw secretary gates saying "not a simple matter." how much of a debate is there? >> well, as so often happens in

these issues, margaret, the state department and some folks in the white house think a no-fly zone may not be the way to go, right now is the best option out there. secretary gates, admiral mullen, the chairman of the joint chiefs in the last two days have made it very clear that, you know, not so fast, folks. not only is this not an easy thing to do, it will be the fourth war in the middle east we'd be involved in. and most importantly, i think, the theme is this might only be the beginning. this wouldn't be the end. if we impose a no-fly zone, if we get the necessary international authorize, what happens if it failed to topple qaddafi? >> warner: well, that is one of the... does seem a big point of debate, which is how extensive of an operation are we talking about? you heard senator kerry say it doesn't have to be a long-running prop sags. secretary galts was saying this is a "big operation in a big country." you've talked to a lot of military experts.

what do they say? >> hope is not an option. gates made it clear if we're going to have a no-fly zone we have to assume all of their s.a.-6 missile are really good and they know how to operate them because it's our men and who are going to be at risk. >> warner: these are anti-aircraft missile? >> ain't aircraft missile that could shoot down our plane, very similar to the one that shot down the f-18 in kosovo a decade ago. so they would have to wipe that out. that would be a sustained bombing campaign. and then there's been ta of could you do it from a single aircraft carer. >> most of the people i'm talking to say no, you can't. it will take at least 100 airplanes. remember, you're going to need tankers, radar planes to alert the fighters and finally, bottom line, secretary gates has made this point as well, he has said we do not have any evidence that there are a lot of airplanes going after libyans on the ground. in fact, he said as of this morning we have no evidence of that. qaddafi to the degree his troops or mercenarys are going after the rebels are doing that on the

ground. and that... you know, the no-fly zone won't deal with that problem. >> well, it does seem to be emerging that if anything would be the trigger, that would be the trigger. that absent an extensive bombing campaign by cad qaddafi on his own people, they're probably not going to go there. >> he knows that a no-fly zone is being discussed and he knows how he can avoid it. so the question is, is he going to be dumb enough to go after his freedom the sky. i'm betting the pentagon is no. >> warner: then you get to senator kerry's issue, though, which is how can the world stand by and watch a ruler like him slaughter his own people. is that the argument that someone in the white house and state department are making? >> yes, that is. but, i mean, qaddafi said today i guess that only 200 people have died, rebels have put the number at 2,000. a lot of people in either category, but the question is is

the world community going to step up to the plate? is nato or the united nations going to step up to the plate? the people i talked to at the pentagon don't think they're going to get that sort of international accord to do this. the u.s. will never do it unilaterally and as tony zinni, the former chief this area, told me yesterday, we do not want to own this problem. if we're going to do it, we've got to do it multinationally. >> warner: now the europeans yesterday-- at least in some capitals, because they're doing some planning, i gather. we're talking about it could be limited. it wouldn't have to be all over the whole country. perhaps, in fact, just in the areas that the rebels are in control. is that militarily a possibility >> a no-fly zoneette? a no-fly zone light? sure, that's possible. military people don't like to talk about that because you have to prepare for the worst case and you never know what's going to happen. but certainly libyan air force is not of such a scale that you

need something huge across the entire country 24/7. and a trimmed-down whittled-down version could be effective. >> warner: now, those who are arguing for it, what's their answer to the point you just raised which has to do with under whose authorization? i mean, the russians yesterday appeared to nix this at the security council. >> the russians and the chinese and the arab league did so today. there's an awful lot of dead weight against the notion of a no-fly zone. and until you break through that it seems like talking about the tactics and techniques and procedures of carrying it out is putting the cart before the horse. >> warner: unless it's meant as a signal to qaddafi. >> well, that's true. but perceptions management is big in this realm. >> warner: now, the secretary is continuing to say that extensive planning is going on. so what's the nature of the planning? 40 who's involved? >> well, what the... what secretary gates has to do is be able to present to the president all possible options even if he

thinks it might not be a good idea. his job is to carry out the president's orders. plainly if the united states and its allies want to carry out a no-fly zone, there are bases in western egypt they could use where bright star is conducted every two years, a big military exercise. there's an abandoned u.s. air force base in libya which we haven't been in in 350 years and it's a safe bet we will not use that because of concern over shoulder-fired missiles from qaddafi loyalists. but there are also bases in italy, tunisia, and aircraft carriers out in the med. all of these things need to be choreographed and basically you'd have fighters in the sky that would be tasked by awacks radar warning planes once the planes detect something taking off and the fighters go and investigate. the. >> warner: and how long would it take to get the "assets" into position? >> there's only one aircraft care dwler now, the "enterprise" the "george h.w. bush" is slated

to leave norfolk. this could begin in a week or two but not overnight. >> warner: now, the two warships that came through suez canal and arrived in the mediterranean today, would they be involved or are they something totally different? >> that's the "kearsarge" and secretary gates made clear they're headed in that direction and ready to bring water purification units. he said nothing at all about any sort of offensive military operations they might be involved in and you get the sense that these sort of ships would be better suited for humanitarian operations. a lot of the "kearsarge's" marines and aircraft are currently in afghanistan but they do have a fair number of helicopters on board that could be used in a more offensive way so that wouldn't be their key role. >> warner: secretary clinton seemed to hint at that today. she said something about using them to support getting equipment and supplies into areas that need them where we are welcome. meaning, i guess, the east.

our people in the pentagon say well, that could raise what happened in africa, the black hawk down scenario which started out as humanitarian. >> they're very leary of going to libyan soil. i mean, a lot of... tens of thousands have streamed out into tunisia and egypt and they'd feel much more security setting up camp there is just outside the boundaries. >> warner: so it might not even be going on at small >> well, there's a debate going on. >> warner: i guess it will continue. >> i guess it will. >> warner: mark thompson from "time" magazine, thank you. >> woodruff: still to come on the "newshour": marcia coyle on the supreme court's free speech ruling; california's no fish zones and libyan poet khaled mattawa. but first, the other news of the day. here's hari sreenivasan. >> sreenivasan: a gunman shot four u.s. air force troops in germany today. the attack triggered investigations in both countries. two u.s. airmen were shot, and two others were injured outside frankfurt airport's terminal two this afternoon. police say a gunman ran onto an

air force shuttle bus and opened fire with a semi-automatic weapon. the suspect's uncle said he's a german born devout muslim whose parents moved from kosovo. authorities don't believe there were any others involved in today's attack, though they are searching for a motive. all four airmen were based at lakenheath air field in england. meanwhile german chancellor angela merkel expressed her condolences. >> ( translated ): it is a terrible incident and germany will do everything possible to quickly find out what has happened. >> sreenivasan: president obama spoke during the afternoon white house briefing. >> i want everybody to understand that we will spare no effort in learning how this outrageous act took place and in working with german authorities to ensure that all of the perpetrators are brought to justice.

police said the u.s. airman and the attacker had a confrontation outside before the shooting started. >> sreenivasan: in yemen, security forces fired tear gas at hundreds of protesters in the south, and two people were killed. opposition forces have been calling for longtime president ali abdullah saleh to step down. separately, white house officials said saleh voiced regret today for accusing the u.s. and israel of organizing the protests. the only christian member of pakistan's cabinet was shot to death today in islamabad. at least three men sprayed shahbaz bhatti's car with bullets near his home. he had video-taped a message acknowledging his advocacy of religious tolerance made him a target of the taliban and al qaeda. >> i'm ready to die for a cause. i'm living for my community and suffering people and i will die to defend their rights. so these threats and these warnings cannot change my opinion and principles. i prefer to die for my principles and for the justice of my community.

>> sreenivasan: bhatti was the second lawmaker murdered recently after opposing laws that call for the death penalty for insulting islam. the top nato commander in afghanistan has apologized for the killings of nine boys in a helicopter attack. it happened tuesday in a remote northeastern region. general david petraeus said today, "we are deeply sorry for this tragedy. these deaths should have never happened." nato officials said there was a miscommunication, and coalition helicopters mistook the boys for insurgents. the u.s. senate today the u.s. army soldier accused in the wikileaks case will face 22 more charges. brad t new charges in military court includes use of unauthorized software on government computers to obtain classified information. the u.s. senate today overwhelmingly approved a two-week the u.s. senate today overwhelmingly approved a two- week stopgap bill to keep the government running. it included $4 billion in spending cuts. president obama immediately signed it, and he urged

congressional leaders to begin negotiating a long-term plan with vice president biden. but house speaker john boehner said first, the senate's democratic majority must put a proposal on the table. >> the house has a position. where's the senate democrat position? i have no idea where it is. how do you... how do you start a conversation where one house has spoken but the other house hasn't? and so, where is the starting point? >> sreenivasan: the senate majority leader harry reid dismissed boehner's challenge as nothing more than a ploy. >> i can't imagine anything so shallow. that's what we do. that's what negotiations are all about. i'm not going to negotiate with you folks here about what we want to do. that's why we need to sit down in a room with the administration there represented and the republicans both in the house and the senate and work something out. >> sreenivasan: house republicans have already voted for $61 billion in cuts for the rest of this fiscal year, but democrats have called that proposal a non-starter. the chairman of the federal reserve ben bernanke said today

the republican cuts could slow the economy. he dismissed projections of 700,000 jobs lost, but he said there would be an effect. >> it would reduce growth, but we think given the size, it's more in the couple of... one to two tenths in the first year, another tenth in the next year, something in that order of magnitude. and that would translate into a couple of hundred thousand jobs. >> sreenivasan: on wall street, stocks managed slight gains, a day after a sharp sell-off. the dow jones industrial average gained more than eight points to close above 12,066. the nasdaq rose more than ten points to close at 2,748. the gains came even though oil surged again, to finish above $102 a barrel for the first time since 2008. thousands of supporters of in ohio, republicans in the state senate narrowly passed a bill that bans public sector workers from striking it also

restricted their collective bargaining. the protest has drown thousands of protestors in recent weeks, it now goes to the statehouse where republicans are in the majority. thousands of supporters of zimbabwe's president robert mugabe rallied today against economic sanctions imposed on their country. trucks and buses brought the mugabe supporters to an open field on the outskirts of harare. mugabe addressed the rally, and threatened to seize foreign businesses as retaliation. the sanctions target mugabe and his party leaders over human rights abuses. pope benedict the sixteenth has now proclaimed in a new book that the jewish people were not to blame for the death of jesus. the vatican officially adopted that position in 1965. in his book "jesus of nazareth, part two" benedict makes his own case by asking, "how could the whole people have been present at this moment of the crucifixion to clamor for jesus's death?" a holocaust survivors group said today the pope's statement helps, by confirming that view for a new generation of catholics. those are some of the day's major stories.

now, back to judy. >> woodruff: and to a much anticipated free speech ruling from the u.s. supreme court. it upheld that the first amendment does protect the rights of protestors to express their views outside military funerals, no matter how offensive the message. the justices today ruled eight to one in favor of a controversial religious group known for its anti-gay rhetoric. attorney margie phelps is the daughter of the church's founder. she had argued the case before the court, and spoke about her victory from topeka, kansas. >> we know what the law is, we follow the law, and we knew that the only way not to uphold our position was to shred not only the first amendment but 200 years of just under the first amendment. >> my first thought was eight

justices don't have the common sense god gave a goat. we found out today that we can no longer bury our dead in this country with dignity. >> woodruff: the high court also heard arguments today in a case involving former u.s. attorney general john ashcroft. marcia coyle of t "naonal law journal" was in the courtroom for the argument and the decision, and she joins us now. welcome back two nights in a row. >> i know, thanks, judy. >> woodruff: so i think it's fair to say, marcia, a lot of people have a hard time understanding this decision handed down, the free speech case. take us back to what happened that precipitated the lawsuit. >> okay. as you recall, there was a protest, picketing outside of a church in which a fallen marine was being... a funeral service was being held for a fallen marine. the family of the marine sued the westborough baptist church

claiming that the demonstration inflicted emotional distress on them. that's a basis for a lawsuit for damages. it's a personal injury. the westborough baptist church raised as a defense the first amendment and the lower appellate court held that the first amendment did protect this speech and overturned a jury verdict in favor of the family. >> woodruff: so what was the main question, then, before the justices. >> whether the first amendment protected this speech. chief justice roberts wrote the opinion today and this morning in the courtroom he read a summary of that opinion and it was very clear, i think, from his tone that he really wanted people to understand how the court reached the decision and that the court's sympathy-- if not the law-- is with the snyders. he began by saying "the issue before the court is whether the

speech, the messages on the pickets was a matter of public concern or private concern. matters of public concern, he explained, have special protection under the first amendment because the amendment reflects our national commitment to a robust and wide open debate on ideas. so how do you decide, he said, what is a matter of public concern or private concern? he said you look at the speech and all the circumstances surrounding it. what was said? where was it said? and how was it said? so he took each step. what was said here? he said the dominant thrust of the messages here really were on issues of public concern: homosexuality in the military, child abuse scandal in the catholic church, the moral decay of the united states. >> warner: so deciding it was a publish concern was crucial to how the court ruled. >> absolutely. >> woodruff: it was an 8-1

decision and samuel alito dissending opinion. what did he say? >> he didn't see... he said this speech went far beyond matters of public concern. he called it a verbal assault on private persons. there was speech directed specifically to matthew snyder, the young marine who died here. and he felt that what the court was saying here was, in effect, allowing these protestors to continue a strategy by which they got publicity for their ideas while at the same time ensuring that there be additional emotional serious emotional injury on innocent victims. he did not see that the first amendment protected this demonstration. >> woodruff: marcia, how unusual is it for the justices writing the opinion to, as you say, go out of their way to say that they feel sympathy for the losing side in the case? >> well, i said it seemed from

his tone that he wanted people to understand that the court's sympathies were with the sniders but he did say in his opinion that he understood, the court understood, that this added to what he called the incalculable grief that mr. snyder felt. but he said its bedrock principles that the first amendment does not suppress or punish the expression of ideas that may cause distress or that we may find abhor rent. >> woodruff: is there ever reaction in the courtroom when the decision is handed down? >> there is often reaction to decisions and i'd say when he began and announced he had the decision in this case, the courtroom is silent but it almost seemed as if it grew more silent. there was a real hush and we couldn't tell what the ruling was because he laid out how he was going to analyze the issue before the court and it wasn't until we got close to the end that we knew what the ruling was

going to be. >> woodruff: are there wider implications for this decision? >> well, i think certainly it sends a message that these types of demonstrations are protected. but as the chief justice pointed out out, 43 states-- including the states involved in this case-- maryland-- have enacted laws that impose restrictions in where these demonstrations can be held, when they can be held. so i think the state has moved very quickly about the publicity about the one in maryland to try to deal with this issue in a constitutional way as possible. >> woodruff: there was another case that involved the former u.s. attorney general, john ashcroft, who was attorney general under president bush. tell us about that >> it's continuing fallout, i'd say, from the bush administration's efforts to go after terrorism, terrorist activities following the 9/11

attacks. the justice department is defending mr. ashcroft in a lawsuit in... today they were before the supreme court arguing that mr. ashcroft has complete immunity from this lawsuit in which an american citizen-- kansas born abdullah al-kid-- charges that mr. ashcroft approved a national policy to use a certain law known as the material witness law, in order to detain american citizens and others. >> woodruff: but it's the obama administration arguing that the former attorney general should be immune from that? >> that's correct. because what's at stake here is prosecutors-- it could be the current attorney general, the next attorney general, or even lines of prosecutors, u.s. attorneys who could face damages suit under this material witness

law. i want to explain what that law is, judy. basically that law tells law enforcement that if you want to arrest somebody as a material witness you have to show to a judge or magistrate that this person has material testimony and the only way you're going assure that person is available is by this material witness warrant. mr. al-kid was held for 16 days in three different detention centers in three different states under extremely harsh conditions. then he was under very big restrictions for 15 months at the ends of which he lost his job and he was separated from his wife. but he was never called to they have a trial and his testimony was never taken. so the argument here is that the justice department used the law as a pretext to detain people in order to gather evidence.

>> woodruff: and he had been a student, he had been conducting what would otherwise have been a normal existence. >> that's right. but he did have an acquaintance who was under investigation and that's why they were interested in him. >> woodruff: and that was argued and we'll wait a few months to see what the justices decide. >> we will. it's an important case. >> woodruff: marcia coyle, thank you. >> my pleasure, judy. >> warner: next, the battle over protecting the ocean and how that's playing out in california. "newshour" correspondent spencer michels has this report -- a joint project with kqed's "science show quest." >> reporter: just before dusk this time of year, the fishing boats return to san francisco from the pacific. their cargo of dungeness crabs headed for stores and restaurants all along the pacific coast. but fishermen are nervous that newly created ocean sanctuaries are about to eat into their catch. >> you get to a point where you

say is this fishery viable any longer? is it worth it for me to go out and catch a handful of fish? >> reporter: fisherman ed tavasieff and others are worried about dozens of areas off the coast that california has either declared off-limits to fishing or has limited the take. environmentalists say these marine protected areas, as they're called are necessary because of overfishing and pollution. >> our biggest challenge is 90% of the big fish on the planet are already gone. 75% of the fish species in most of the world's oceans are fished to their absolute limit. >> it's human disturbance, it's pollution, it's development along our shores that we're encroaching on habitat. >> reporter: maria brown is superintendent of the farallones national marine sanctuary off san francisco. >> 20, 30 years ago, we thought the ocean was limitless. "dilution is the solution of pollution," we heard. and what we've realized over

time is that ocean isn't limitless. it's the blood supply of the planet, and it's being affected over and over again, by death by a million cuts. >> reporter: in december, the state fish and game commission narrowly voted to establish 36 protected areas along the state's southern coastline, more than 350 square miles. that's more than 15% of southern coastal waters where commercial and sport fishing is either restricted or forbidden. plans for northern waters will be in place by 2012. when it all gets done, it'll be a watershed moment for the state, according to ken wiseman, executive director of the california marine life protection act initiative-- a partnership between the state and private groups. >> there are big reserves and there are specific ones in florida or in new zealand, but never before have we done an entire network, where the whole state is connected along all 1,200 miles of the coastline,

and i think it's going to really set a trend and have a healthier ocean. >> reporter: california actually began trying to preserve the ocean nearly a 100 years ago. but the areas chosen for protection were too small, and it didn't work very well. this time, the zones are bigger and teams of scientists have advised the state on which areas to protect, which species are crucial and how to monitor the zones to see if they are working. there are no markers or boundary lines on the surface of the ocean; fishermen and others are expected to read notices and use g.p.s. to stay out of protected areas. as for the fish? i asked steven wiseberg, a biologist with the california ocean protection council. will a fish know that this is a protected area. and if i go over this line people could catch me? >> there are maps that have been done in other parts of the world where scientists have actually gone and tagged the fish, and after a while, the fish actually figure out where the boundaries are and you actually see them maintaining themselves within boundaries.

>> reporter: mark carr, a professor of marine ecology at the university of california at santa cruz, has advised the state on marine protected areas since the program got going several years ago. >> they're really more like the national parks on land, where people only go there to enjoy the natural environment, and to recognize that we are protecting intact ecosystems for future generations. >> reporter: carr also thinks the protected areas will be useful as a baseline, to see how a healthy region compares to the rest of the ocean. one of carr's main interests is underwater kelp forests whose health he considers a major factor in supporting sea life. he and his crews dive into the ocean and count what's down there. >> we want to make sure there's plenty of kelp that produces plenty of habitat to support all of the other fish and the

invertebrates in the system. and so we send these crews in that are trained to count the invertebrates, the algae and the fishes, using scuba to characterize the relative number of each of the different species. >> reporter: while environmentalists are thrilled at the expansion of protected areas, many fishermen remain unhappy. in two years of countless meetings up and down the coast, fishermen, surfers, businessmen, conservationists have sparred. >> fishermen aren't trying to hide anything. we just want to make a living, that's all. just feed our kids and put food on the table. no one's getting rich any more. sardine days are over with. we're doing everything we possibly can to keep the big fish on the reef. >> reporter: among those who testified against the protected areas is larry collins, president of the crab boat owners association. >> there's places that i've run crab gear, i've put my crab traps in for the last 20 years

that i'm not going to be able to set my crab traps there any more. there's places that i sometimes go salmon trolling, when the salmon are there. you know, sometimes they're there this week or that week. i won't be able to go in there any more. it just lessens your options. >> reporter: besides creating problems for fishermen like him, collins thinks the marine protected areas won't do much good. >> there's no need for them. there's no need for them at all. it doesn't make any sense to protect one little part of the ocean. you got to protect the whole thing. >> reporter: but protecting crucial zones does, in effect, protect the whole thing, argues biologist mark carr. >> marine protected areas are thought to be such a crucial tool for what is called ecosystem based management, because a protected area will protect all the species that interact with one another within

an ecosystem, rather than just one little piece at a time, species by species. >> reporter: even so, ken wiseman says, he takes seriously the concerns of fishermen like larry collins. >> i say to larry and his colleagues we invited, to come on down to say let's figure out how we can minimize that damage to your industry. at the same time, let's talk about how we can do the long term investment that makes sure you have fish for you and your grandkids. but, i think we worked pretty hard to make sure that nobody was put out of business. >> reporter: but that's not going to help him for the next two or three or four years? >> this is only 16% of... of the coastal area, so he's got 84% where he can still fish and along that 16%. it's going to be a lot healthier and he'll be fishing a lot longer. >> reporter: despite the huge effort to set up the protected areas, there is at least one obvious potential flaw: the state doesn't have enough money to enforce the rules. there aren't enough wardens to patrol the waters, and so they're relying on a network of agencies and the public to keep an eye out for violators.

the people that are being regulated, particularly the fisherman, both the commercial and the recreational fishers, really have to buy into this idea and have to help police and enforce the protected areas as well. >> reporter: despite disagreements and some legal action, the zones are becoming law. scientists say it will take at least five years of close monitoring before they know how effective marine protected areas are in restoring health to the ocean. >> woodruff: finally tonight, we come back to libya. jeffrey brown gets some personal reflections on the crisis there from a libyan-born poet. he recorded this conversation yesterday. >> brown: khaled mattawa was a

child in libya when qaddafi came to power in 1969. mattawa eventually dime the u.s. and made a life as writer and scholar. he's published four collections of his own poetry and translated and. >> ed: the numerous volumes of arabic writing for english readers. he's an associate professor for creative writing at the university of michigan and joins us now. khaled, americans know very little of life inside qaddafi's libya. tell us a little bit about what it was like when you were a child. what was the atmosphere? >> i remember in 1979 that our school was all of a sudden doing the hot wind coming from the desert was all filmed with dust. two or three inches of red dust and the reason was that qaddafi had declared that students and faculty and so on should clean their schools and so forth. that's a nice idea but certainly

the system was collapsing. the glass in the windows of our classrooms was broken it was utter chaos and fear that you couldn't challenge these notions in any way. a few... a year or so after i left and dime the united states five of the students that i was sitting with in the same classroom that same classroom filled with dust and broken windows went to jail because they were suspected in being in some kind of coupe attempt. these were 16 and 17-year-old students and they were thrown in jail for a life sentence and were released in 1988 just because qaddafi decided to forgive them. but that shows the malfunctioning society that he had put in place.

and also the fear he put into the population. >> couric: you left libya, you weren't able to go back for a long time and then you did in 2000, i gather. had anything changed? did you see signs of dissent that was showing itself in some way? >> yes, i remember going to a military conference in 2001. it was a conference in honor of one of libya's best-known author just to tell you about who this author was, he was a very well-known author who had written about maybe 63 short stories from '64 to 1970 and was... had become a very well-known author and established. and then from 1970 until he died he had six stories. so you could tell the qaddafi regime had impacted him. his creativity, had sapped his life. but in 2000 there was a conference on him. this was the first time that a conference was devoted to the

countries authors, one of the nation's authors. just that someone other than qaddafi got to be in the limelight. by 2000, 2001, people were just starting to broaden the space before them and and it did sort of happen, composition about corruption, about fat catsegan to appear in the newspaper and in 2004, of course, they saw the danger of... qaddafi's people saw the danger and they decided to create a whole union for writers which would not allow any of the formerly imprisoned writers to be involved in it. >> brown: so signs with there, but ultimately the promises that he had given the people about cultural life and rejuvenation never materialized and that ice

why the revolution did take place because the last ten years were the years of big promises and also huge thefts. and these... contributed to the fall of the regime. brown sbroup to the extent now-- and it's, of course, a very fluid situation-- but to the extent you're able to contact family and friends there now, what do they say this uprising means in personal terms to name and for you? >> it means the world to them. i think people were kind of scared at the beginning, but things happened so fast that if you had any iota of caution, lots of people just threw it away because it became a decisive moment for a lot of people. i have to join this great cause is what people told themselves and in an individual fashion. and they did. they event... within hours it turned from people being afraid to saying "the moment of truth has come, i have to join this effort." so there's great relief in

benghazi. there's great relief all over libya. a friend told me that he took his 80-year-old father to the courthouse in benghazi and he saw the flag... the independence flag flying over it and the old man broke down in tears thinking that he would never live to see this moment. so people are feeling a great relief at having this dictator out of their lives. they're worried, of course, they're worried about what he might do, what qaddafi might do. will he hit them with airplanes? will he manage to bring more weapons to africa to hit them? they're worried about how things will gel up as far as even the administration of their own cities, the chaos is wonderful in the sense of he's gone but a kind of order has emerged and the people that are being put in power in the city right now are

exhausted. they need to establish structure as well as to make sure that security is maintained. but the... to tell you the truth this country, libya, is being created and used anew. people are having a national moment. the moment of themselves as being libyans, neither western or eastern. and so every event that is positive, that is strengthening them, is making them feel much more united and actually feel a sense of a new life in them, a new lease of on life to them as individuals and as a nation. >>rown: okay, khaled mattawa, poet, translator, and professor at the university of michigan, thanks so much. >> thank you, jeff. it's great to be on your program. >> warner: again, the major developments of the day:

forces loyal to libyan leader moammar qaddafi struck at a key oil port in the east, but rebels routed the attackers. qaddafi insisted his supporters would fight to the last, and he warned against foreign intervention. a gunman in frankfurt, germany killed two american airmen and wounded two others. and the u.s. senate easily approved a measure to keep the government running for another two weeks, but with $4 billion in spending cuts. president obama quickly signed it. and to hari sreenivasan for what's on the "newshour" online. hari? >> sreenivasan: you can watch khaled mattawa read one of his poems on "art beat." and costs are on the rise at gas pumps around the u.s. "patchwork nation" looks at where the price hikes are highest and what that could mean for the larger economic picture. plus paul solman has been responding to your questions and comments about his recent report on unfunded public pensions in rhode island.

find that on our "making sense" page. all that and more is on our web site, newshour.pbs.org. margaret? >> warner: and that's the "newshour" for tonight. on thursday, we'll look at mexico's bloody fight against its drug cartels as president calderon visits the white house. i'm margaret warner. >> woodruff: and i'm judy woodruff. we'll see you online and again here tomorrow evening. thank you and good night. major funding for the pbs newshour has been provided by: >> every year, chevron spends billions with small businesses. that goes right to the heart of local communities, providing jobs, keeping people at work. they depend on us. >> the economy depends on them. >> and we depend on them.

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